I consider my horsemanship journey to be about discovering what is ethical not what is natural.
Keeping horses in general and riding them especially is the farthest thing from natural no matter what trainer you follow.
Ethical treatment is what has steered me towards positive reinforcement, bitless riding, and why Bodhi does not wear shoes and why he is on pasture board. Not because it is more natural for him but because I am concerned about his welfare and well being.
It seems like every time I look around one of the natural horsemanship trainers is caught doing something unethical-- I am sure I don't need to show anyone these examples, they seem to be talked about to death on other blogs and forums.
My request: Read this take on Natural Horsemanship. They said it more concisely then I ever could. What do you think of what this author has to say?
Showing posts with label Natural horsemanship. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Natural horsemanship. Show all posts
Thursday, March 3, 2011
Saturday, July 17, 2010
Off to Canada!
We are leaving tomorrow morning veeeery early to begin our three day journey to Manitoba. Wish us luck. We are setting off with so many things unsettled. Bodhi's leave date, our housing situation etc etc. We just can't wait any longer. Everything in Florida here is closed up, boxed, and stored. Ready or not Canada here we come!
On a completely unrelated note. I wanted to share some links with you on my last post in the US!
This has been going around so you have probably seen it, but if you have not I would say it is worth your thoughts.
Disclaimer: I am not an anti, or a pro of any one training method. I feel like everyone has something to learn from everyone. You should be an open minded skeptic and not rule out any person from sharing their knowledge but you should also take everything people say with a grain of salt. It is a balance. I have learned so much from so many different trainers I am constantly gleaning useful tidbits off of everyone. That being said I am not going to financially support a trainer that uses an abusive technique. Period. He may have some good things to say, and I am still willing to learn but I am not willing to pay. I hope others feel the same. My feelings are that these methods are not appropriate. Not in any context. You should never gum line a horse as a training method.
Catwalk and Pat
Now let's focus on the positive side of horse training I have this to recommend as well!
How to Halter train a head shy horse
This is a great explanation of how to work with a head shy horse correctly with a video. Dealing with horse issues takes time and patience. When you turn them into commodities like in the show world, or the fix-a-horse in an hour clinic world, you sacrifice the horse.
On a completely unrelated note. I wanted to share some links with you on my last post in the US!
This has been going around so you have probably seen it, but if you have not I would say it is worth your thoughts.
Disclaimer: I am not an anti, or a pro of any one training method. I feel like everyone has something to learn from everyone. You should be an open minded skeptic and not rule out any person from sharing their knowledge but you should also take everything people say with a grain of salt. It is a balance. I have learned so much from so many different trainers I am constantly gleaning useful tidbits off of everyone. That being said I am not going to financially support a trainer that uses an abusive technique. Period. He may have some good things to say, and I am still willing to learn but I am not willing to pay. I hope others feel the same. My feelings are that these methods are not appropriate. Not in any context. You should never gum line a horse as a training method.
Catwalk and Pat
Now let's focus on the positive side of horse training I have this to recommend as well!
How to Halter train a head shy horse
This is a great explanation of how to work with a head shy horse correctly with a video. Dealing with horse issues takes time and patience. When you turn them into commodities like in the show world, or the fix-a-horse in an hour clinic world, you sacrifice the horse.
Monday, June 14, 2010
Many ways to train a horse
There are so many methods out there today isn't there? Everyone has their trainer that they follow or their discipline they stick to etc...
The truth is that there are many ways to train a horse! Yes almost all of the methods work! Horses are amazing creatures and will adapt to almost any training method. The differences I have noticed between the methods though are how long it takes for a horse to learn, how readily the horse remembers the lesson, and what the residual side affects of training on the horses behavior.
Check this out:
Bookends Farm had an excellent post that I would love for you guys to read. I think it really explains the consequences of different training methods on the horse.
What I have personally noticed with + reinforcement is that it takes Bodhi less repetitions to learn new skills, and that he almost never forgets what he has learned. I have had very similar experiences to the blog post above where I slip back into traditional training and correct or even punish and I always regret it. As she says it does work, but is it really worth the stress in our relationship, or the negative consequences?
Yet another reason to love Steffen Peters... he is a clicker trainer! I am not surprised but I am definitely proud to learn that the riding team that won Rolex use clicker training!
The truth is that there are many ways to train a horse! Yes almost all of the methods work! Horses are amazing creatures and will adapt to almost any training method. The differences I have noticed between the methods though are how long it takes for a horse to learn, how readily the horse remembers the lesson, and what the residual side affects of training on the horses behavior.
Check this out:
Bookends Farm had an excellent post that I would love for you guys to read. I think it really explains the consequences of different training methods on the horse.
What I have personally noticed with + reinforcement is that it takes Bodhi less repetitions to learn new skills, and that he almost never forgets what he has learned. I have had very similar experiences to the blog post above where I slip back into traditional training and correct or even punish and I always regret it. As she says it does work, but is it really worth the stress in our relationship, or the negative consequences?
Yet another reason to love Steffen Peters... he is a clicker trainer! I am not surprised but I am definitely proud to learn that the riding team that won Rolex use clicker training!
Labels:
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Natural horsemanship,
positive reinforcement,
Training
Thursday, May 13, 2010
This is harder than it looks

He is such a handsome boy, also what a trooper. He cooporated as I tried to take photos of him free lunging myself....


Man it is hard! Here are a few photos but they suck...
Bodhi was super hyped up and spent the first five minutes I went to get him from his pasture running-- tail like a flag, snorting and stretching out. He came up like a good boy afterward but I thought it was a good time to let him jump over some fences... Very apprehensive and we started veeeery slowly. over ground poles then 12 inch then 1 ft.... Bodhi was energised, engaged and flew over the obstacles with knees tucked! (he usually is happy to hop over things but shows neither grace nor vigor) We only went up to about 2'3 but that is a big thing for Bodhi to show that much enthusiasm and. agility. He was at liberty of course and he got a click treat after each fence. He would stop and watch me raise it and then trot off before I could even ask for it. He was on a mission. The pictures above are us goofing around after this session. I was trying to take photos of him. He happily would trot around be but I sucked at taking photos of him from inside our circle. You would think that taking photos of a horse at liberty would be easier than on a line but I match Bodhi's talent for coordination.
On a completely different topic I found an article on licking and chewing. You have to sign up to read it but it is free, and has been a hassle free site so far. They have free videos and lots of medical info.. i though the author had a really interesting perspective. what do you think?
Maybe licking and chewing is more of a stress relief signal then a signal of "learning" (Like a dog yawning). Bodhi rarely exhibits the lick and chew though he is obviously a quick study. Bodhi does yawn sometimes and I always begin to wrap it up if I see that. I figure it means he is tired. If not physically then emotionally or mentally. I never really saw the lick and chew until I did extensive round pen work with some pretty nasty characters. They would often exhibit it after really tense or strenuous situations. I read it as a break through but looking back at the big picture I really don't think it was.
Oh! check out the hair! It was reeeeally hard to not make a matching pony. He is a perfect canvas with his naturally platinum locks....
Labels:
Natural horsemanship,
photos,
Training
Thursday, March 4, 2010
The school of hard knocks
I have had my thinking cap on today and in the mood to summarize as I have been working on a manuscript for work. Scientific writing always puts me in the critical thinking mood. So for my 60th post I wanted to try something different.
I was thinking about my life with horses so far. What I have learned through trial and error, what I have gleaned from trainers, magazines, books, videos, blogs, osmosis, diffusion, and of course the primary source: the horses themselves!
I thought I would make a list of my personal discoveries and maybe you guys could share some of yours? There is a ton of information out there so tell me what have you discovered? What has the school of hard knocks taught you?

And on the other side of the coin...
I have come a long way from where I started though. How about you? How have horses changed your point of view?
I was thinking about my life with horses so far. What I have learned through trial and error, what I have gleaned from trainers, magazines, books, videos, blogs, osmosis, diffusion, and of course the primary source: the horses themselves!
I thought I would make a list of my personal discoveries and maybe you guys could share some of yours? There is a ton of information out there so tell me what have you discovered? What has the school of hard knocks taught you?
- Use positive reinforcement-We are working with one of the few species that actually responds to Negative reinforcement at all but every animal on the planet (including whales, elephants, clams, fish, and humans) responds to positive reinforcement! Reward is the mechanism that makes work play.
- Be predictable- I think being a "leader" means the student can count on the teacher to react the same way every time. Confidence means you have a plan. In order to create a learning environment you have to be predictable in your cues, your rewards, and your releases. Trust is built when your horse can predict your response and you can reasonably predict theirs. It is not magic it is repetition.
- Keep it simple- Keep your cues simple and work on one thing at a time. I need this tattooed on my forehead because I am horrible at this!
- Be creative- There have been so many times that I have been stuck in one mind frame/discipline/trainers' philosophy. If you have a problem then find another way to look at it. There is no one right answer and horses are individuals just as much as humans are. Be an open minded skeptic.
- Have a plan for every ride- When I was younger you just got on and went through the gaits in circles. I think that really bores our equines. Same with lunging for the sake of exercise or blowing off steam. Same with throwing tarps in their faces all day. Have small objectives for every ride and when they get it right tell them! If you want a horse that likes to work make sure they know what you want them to do.
- Bad days are normal- Actually that has been scientifically proven( see illustration). As new behaviors are acquired and old behavior extinguishes there are always extinction bursts. They are like clock work.
- Find a yes- an answer to a bad day! If you are experiencing one of those nasty extinction episodes then ask your horse a question you know he will say yes to. That is how you build confidence.
- Consider biology- Training is a science, but don't factor out of the equation of horse's innate behaviors. Work them into your training regiment and don't fight them. I think this is what natural horsemanship is trying to say but I do wish they would use a little more scientific dialog and a little less magical thinking
And on the other side of the coin...
- Don't be afraid of being afraid-fear is nature's way of telling you something may not be such a good idea. We have a stigma against being afraid but it really is a good thing. Take it down to where your comfort level is and work from there. Horses really do pick up when we are nervous.
- Punishment does not work- it doesn't! It makes our animals fearful and is almost impossible to administer correctly. It only shows the animal what you do not want not what you do want. It also has the side affect of relaying to the animals that the behavior is appropriate when it is not punished. which increases the likely hood of re occurrence. Not fun, though we have all been there for sure!
- Don't use force- I know this seems repetitive but I am not talking about punishment but I mean when using an irritant in negative reinforcement. First they are bigger than us. If you use force you are playing a game you can't win. Also if you use force you are illiciting a prey response. We use force and punishment because we are primates. If we get angry or scared we aggress. We all do it from time to time, and most disciplines and training methods excuse it or condone it, but it is not productive or necessary in training. We do sometimes stoop to that level, but don't make excuses for it and see it as a mistake not a victory.
- Anthropomorphize- Horses do not think we are horses! They do not think you are their alpha or leader. It is not fair to them to think about it in this way. The horse responds in a way that reflects his biology and his repertoire of learned behaviors. "Trust" comes from generalizing your cues so that he reliably responds to them including when he is scared, excited or saucy, not because he thinks you are his herd leader.
I have come a long way from where I started though. How about you? How have horses changed your point of view?
Wednesday, February 3, 2010
Poisoned cues and Natural horsemanship Part 2



Now that I have explained what a poisoned cue is (or at least had a crack at it!) I am going to attempt to explain what in the heck it has to do with the natural horsemanship movement.
Human error leads to habituation, which leads to more force, louder aids and poisoned cues. Right? That gives me a big bout of learned helplessness just thinking about it! Luckily for us though -- horses are very forgiving.
What I mean by forgiving is not that they are consciously forgiving. They do not understand mistakes or good intentions. They are not forgetful either. Horses have been found to still respond to cues learned 10 years prior with little practice with those cues in between. We all know how amazing the equine memory is! What I mean is that horses are highly specific in what they do remember, or associate, so with training mistakes there is usually a way out. Poisoned cues can be replaced with a new one in it's stead! This-I-believe is why Pat Parelli and the rest of the "Natural"gang came to be so popular ( and rich too you guys want what for a halter!)
I know from personal experience as well with by personal observation that a large percentage of people that are drawn to Parelli are people that already have a horse but problems have come up using the "traditional" method and they are looking for a new way to approach riding and training their horse. Sure they have some clients that have had no prior horse experience but they do market themselves as a solution for the "problem horse". Here is a familiar but hypothetical story to better explain what I mean:
Owner/rider has a horse that bucks under saddle and is UN controllable on the ground. Most likely she has tried many of the traditional methods for fixing the issues by changing the bit, escalating the "aides" using a chain over the nose etc etc, but the horse now just bucks almost every time they ride together and is impossible to catch.
I think that this is because by now most of her aides she uses to communicate with her horse are poisoned cues.The rider when using the reins and her leg now is eliciting a fear response at least some of time-- same with the halter and lead.
Rider finds Parelli program and gives it a try. She buys the new rope halter with the savvy string, and the carrot stick, and starts playing the "7 games". Her horse starts to respond to the porcupine game and seems to be learning. Her horse also seems to be more relaxed and happier in her work. She buys a Parelli hackamore and maybe even a Parelli saddle (gee gads!). Horse seems cured!
The Parelli method says that the training issues were solved by " love, language and leadership " They say this is about communicating to the horse in a language they can understand. They say that playing their seven games and using their method builds respect and makes you your horses leader. The Parelli program is brilliant because it works but not for those reasons above. I think the Parelli system works not because you are talking with your horse or your horse now sees you as a dominant heard member but because they take away your poisoned cues and the negative associations of the equipment that you had and give you NEW equipment and NEW cues. It is a fresh start. The horse is highly specific in his bad associations. Actually just changing minor things in the way you ask and how you ask may actually be a completely new experience for your horse. How brilliant Parelli!
What I do not like is the way the sell it though. Natural horsemanship is not natural. No more natural then other ways. Natural horsemanship professionals are not speaking horse. What they are masters of is negative reinforcement. They know when to release. Just like all really amazing horse trainers out their. All the 7 games are is practicing negative reinforcement. It is just a new package for the same old message. I am glad they are getting rid of some of the mentalities and attitudes of older traditional regimes, however I think people would be better off and their would be a lower percentage of horses redeveloping behavioral issues in the "Natural" world if people actually understood the science behind why all of this stuff works. It is not magic guys! It is behavioral theory plain and simple! :)
Tuesday, February 2, 2010
Poisoned cues and Natural horsemanship Part 1
"Pavlov hits me with more bad news every time I answer the phone so I play and I sing and I just let it ring, all day when I'm at home"
Ani Difranco
While reading Karen Pryor's Latest book I had this amazing ah hah! moment. I am going to attempt to explain what I figured out so bare with me! Let me know if it doesn't make sense. I am really excited about this if you can not tell and I would love to hear what you guys think!
First let me attempt to explain this new concept of a poisoned cue-- a term coined by Karen Pryor to describe an event that we have all had experience with. I will start with an example she gave in the book that really helped me to understand. A great example of a poisoned cue is your name. Your name does not immediately illicit a positive response or reaction from you necessarily. It can be quite ambiguous. Your name is complicated. It depends on how it is said. It can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the context.
I hear---"MOLLY" and I stop and think, is this person wanting to praise or to punish? Should I answer?
This is fine in language but it is bad for getting a consistent result in training. I thought of another great human example of a poisoned cue; the telephone ring. Sometimes answering the telephone can be a positive experience, like talking to a friend, or getting a call about a job offer etc... sometimes it can be an aggravating one, telemarketers, your mother in law nagging you about something, or surveys. It can even be a very negative one, someone calling you to yell, or to inform you of a loved one's sickness, or death. How many people screen their calls or feel a bit of anxiety when answering the phone? That is a poisoned cue!
Now lets look at this in the light of horse training--- We all know that habituation is a common cause of horses becoming "dull" or "lazy" to our aides. Habituation is a consequence of poorly executed negative reinforcement and I have never met a single trained horse that does not exhibit some extent of unintended habituation to cues.
Poisoned cues also is they key to a lot of "resistance" behaviors seen in horses. A rider's aides become ambiguous to a horse over time because of poorly executed negative reinforcement as well as the concept of the aversive stimulus of negative reinforcement must get louder if the aide is "ignored". When riders kick, pull, and tap harder it is not just a negative stimulus it becomes a punishing experience. Soon your horse does not know if a squeeze is going to lead to a release or going to lead to a good thump in the ribs. See what I mean? At the least you get muddy communication, hesitation and dullness, stiffness and mild anxiety. In worse cases you get bucking, rearing, bolting. John Lyons likes to say things like "You gas pedal is broken" Well I think it is more that your gas pedal is poisoned! Horse anxiety in training and avoidance behaviors like bucking are caused by something a bit more sinister than habituation, but a lot more subtle than horses subjected to obvious cruelty. I have met many horses with some extreme behaviors that have led very great lives and I think the poisoned cue is a concept that explains this phenomenon well!
In PART II I am going to tie this in with Natural horsemanship I swear! :)
Further Reading....
http://www.reachingtheanimalmind.com/pdfs/ch_09/ch_09_pdf_04.pdf
http://www.reachingtheanimalmind.com/chapter_09.html
Ani Difranco
While reading Karen Pryor's Latest book I had this amazing ah hah! moment. I am going to attempt to explain what I figured out so bare with me! Let me know if it doesn't make sense. I am really excited about this if you can not tell and I would love to hear what you guys think!
First let me attempt to explain this new concept of a poisoned cue-- a term coined by Karen Pryor to describe an event that we have all had experience with. I will start with an example she gave in the book that really helped me to understand. A great example of a poisoned cue is your name. Your name does not immediately illicit a positive response or reaction from you necessarily. It can be quite ambiguous. Your name is complicated. It depends on how it is said. It can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the context.
I hear---"MOLLY" and I stop and think, is this person wanting to praise or to punish? Should I answer?
This is fine in language but it is bad for getting a consistent result in training. I thought of another great human example of a poisoned cue; the telephone ring. Sometimes answering the telephone can be a positive experience, like talking to a friend, or getting a call about a job offer etc... sometimes it can be an aggravating one, telemarketers, your mother in law nagging you about something, or surveys. It can even be a very negative one, someone calling you to yell, or to inform you of a loved one's sickness, or death. How many people screen their calls or feel a bit of anxiety when answering the phone? That is a poisoned cue!
Now lets look at this in the light of horse training--- We all know that habituation is a common cause of horses becoming "dull" or "lazy" to our aides. Habituation is a consequence of poorly executed negative reinforcement and I have never met a single trained horse that does not exhibit some extent of unintended habituation to cues.
Poisoned cues also is they key to a lot of "resistance" behaviors seen in horses. A rider's aides become ambiguous to a horse over time because of poorly executed negative reinforcement as well as the concept of the aversive stimulus of negative reinforcement must get louder if the aide is "ignored". When riders kick, pull, and tap harder it is not just a negative stimulus it becomes a punishing experience. Soon your horse does not know if a squeeze is going to lead to a release or going to lead to a good thump in the ribs. See what I mean? At the least you get muddy communication, hesitation and dullness, stiffness and mild anxiety. In worse cases you get bucking, rearing, bolting. John Lyons likes to say things like "You gas pedal is broken" Well I think it is more that your gas pedal is poisoned! Horse anxiety in training and avoidance behaviors like bucking are caused by something a bit more sinister than habituation, but a lot more subtle than horses subjected to obvious cruelty. I have met many horses with some extreme behaviors that have led very great lives and I think the poisoned cue is a concept that explains this phenomenon well!
In PART II I am going to tie this in with Natural horsemanship I swear! :)
Further Reading....
http://www.reachingtheanimalmind.com/pdfs/ch_09/ch_09_pdf_04.pdf
http://www.reachingtheanimalmind.com/chapter_09.html
Thursday, December 10, 2009
Monty Roberts: Yay or Neigh?
I know I know corny title but sometimes I can't help myself!
I first saw Monty Roberts some time in the 90's at a clinic. My trainer at the time was pretty rough and old fashioned. I- like all children-- viewed horses through romantic rose colored glasses, and was not satisfied with the horsemanship I was being taught. Seeing Monty blew my young mind and set me on the path of horsemanship I am on today. I have never read any of his books, I think I may have seen one of his documentaries on PBS, but later down the line of my education I lumped him with all of the natural horsemanship trainers. What do you think about Monty Roberts? What do you think of the "natural horsemanship" trainers?
My view of the movement is that I am happy that people are moving in that general direction. However I feel that a lot of the good training advise they could be giving is hyped up, mystified and ritualized. I feel like the majority of their audience is missing the point. Chasing a horse around a round pen all the time is not what horses need. They do not need fancy halters, saddles, or carrot sticks either. Some of this stuff is harmless and helps beginner horse people enjoy their animals more, sometimes though I have seen it backfire and make things worse. The other thing I do not understand is how expensive it is! I would love to read into some of these trainers and learn about their methods and really give them a fair shot but why are their merchandise priced like that? When I see the prices on the Pat Parelli website it just screams scam.
Well I digress- My point is Monty the same? What do you guys think about him as a trainer.
He has started a new website with video and audio training instruction. I am intereset I think but for that price, not so much! Am I being cheap here or what? Check it out
http://www.montyroberts.com/university.html
Bodhi News
Bodhi has been amazing as usual. We have been continuing our work with lead changes as it has been our only gateway to the left lead. He gets it now consistently with the aid of a ground pole. He has now started to get his left lead from the trot as well with the aid of the ground pole. Right now I am pretty sure he thinks the ground pole is magic so I will have to devise a method of slowly removing it. He thinks he needs it but we know he doesn't!
I took a spin around the arena yesterday bareback and *gasp* bridleless. I attached a stirrup leather around his neck because I am a chicken and I enjoy having an oh "sh*t handle". Overall he was a good boy. He still had amazing halts with out the bridle and he would even give me tempo changes within the trot. We did a bit of canter and preformed a halt from the canter. What a good boy! What he would not do is turn. We will have to work on that! Any suggestions. He knows how to turn using my legs and my body. I can drop the reins and do serpentines. For some reason it is a different story with out reins.
I first saw Monty Roberts some time in the 90's at a clinic. My trainer at the time was pretty rough and old fashioned. I- like all children-- viewed horses through romantic rose colored glasses, and was not satisfied with the horsemanship I was being taught. Seeing Monty blew my young mind and set me on the path of horsemanship I am on today. I have never read any of his books, I think I may have seen one of his documentaries on PBS, but later down the line of my education I lumped him with all of the natural horsemanship trainers. What do you think about Monty Roberts? What do you think of the "natural horsemanship" trainers?
My view of the movement is that I am happy that people are moving in that general direction. However I feel that a lot of the good training advise they could be giving is hyped up, mystified and ritualized. I feel like the majority of their audience is missing the point. Chasing a horse around a round pen all the time is not what horses need. They do not need fancy halters, saddles, or carrot sticks either. Some of this stuff is harmless and helps beginner horse people enjoy their animals more, sometimes though I have seen it backfire and make things worse. The other thing I do not understand is how expensive it is! I would love to read into some of these trainers and learn about their methods and really give them a fair shot but why are their merchandise priced like that? When I see the prices on the Pat Parelli website it just screams scam.
Well I digress- My point is Monty the same? What do you guys think about him as a trainer.
He has started a new website with video and audio training instruction. I am intereset I think but for that price, not so much! Am I being cheap here or what? Check it out
http://www.montyroberts.com/university.html
Bodhi News
Bodhi has been amazing as usual. We have been continuing our work with lead changes as it has been our only gateway to the left lead. He gets it now consistently with the aid of a ground pole. He has now started to get his left lead from the trot as well with the aid of the ground pole. Right now I am pretty sure he thinks the ground pole is magic so I will have to devise a method of slowly removing it. He thinks he needs it but we know he doesn't!
I took a spin around the arena yesterday bareback and *gasp* bridleless. I attached a stirrup leather around his neck because I am a chicken and I enjoy having an oh "sh*t handle". Overall he was a good boy. He still had amazing halts with out the bridle and he would even give me tempo changes within the trot. We did a bit of canter and preformed a halt from the canter. What a good boy! What he would not do is turn. We will have to work on that! Any suggestions. He knows how to turn using my legs and my body. I can drop the reins and do serpentines. For some reason it is a different story with out reins.
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Natural horsemanship,
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